Interview with Belle Waring and Dawn Reno’s Online Creative Writing Class

(16:01) [Nickole Brown] Welcome to the Sarabande in Education Chatroom! Tonight poet Belle Waring will be meeting with Dawn Reno's Creative Writing Class from 6-7 EST.
(17:48) [Dawn Reno] Hi Nickole!
(17:50) [Becca ] hi
(17:52) [Dawn Reno] Hi Becca!
(17:52) [Dawn Reno] Guess you didn't have a problem getting on, huh? Did Kelly take care of it for you?
(17:53) [Nickole Brown] Hi, Dawn. . . great to "see" you again!
(17:54) [Becca ] Yes, she got me all set up.
(17:54) [Dawn Reno] Great to "see" you too, Nickole. Looking forward to tonight's chat. ** That's great, Becca. I'm sure you'll enjoy meeting Belle.
(17:54) [Nickole Brown] Becca, just to let you know, I got your registration earlier today.
(17:55) [Becca ] okay, great.
(17:56) [Dawn Reno] Nickole, I think we might not see all of my students tonight. Several of them had classes or work. Did you hear from Brian?
(17:56) [Becca ] Pardon me for being a bit out of it tonight, I seem to have come down with the flu.
(17:56) [Nickole Brown] No, not yet. I sent him an e-mail this afternoon and am waiting for his reply.
(17:57) [Dawn Reno] Sorry about that, Becca. Hope you feel better ;-) Nickole, when you hear from Brian, let me know. I think we'll be okay for a chat as long as it's within the next couple of weeks. We've finished the short story section and are heading into poetry now.
(17:57) [Nickole Brown] How many students are you expecting?
(17:58) [Dawn Reno] I hope we see at least 6.
(17:58) [Becca ] Me too!
(17:59) [Nickole Brown] Well, we're a little early. . .it's kind of like waiting for people to show up at a party, no?
(18:00) [Dawn Reno] By the way, Becca, thanks for lending Chelle your book. **You're right, Nickole. I always feel like I should have a glass of wine while I'm waiting . . .
(18:01) [Becca ] Not a problem.
(18:02) [Dawn Reno] Nickole, while we're waiting, Becca is one of my students who's interested in making a career out of writing. I've been telling her about Vermont College. Want to give it a plug?
(18:02) [Dawn Reno] Becca, Nickole graduated from the same program I did.
(18:03) [Becca ] Really.
(18:04) [Nickole Brown] Well, I'm in my third semester right now. It's definitely challenging, but I'm having a fabulous time. Becca, did you want to work in poetry or fiction?
(18:04) [Dawn Reno] And, obviously, she has a job in publishing. (Sorry, Nickole, I thought you'd graduated.)
(18:05) [Darryl Darmin] Hello
(18:05) [Nickole Brown] No, I was actually attracted to the program at Vermont because I didn't want to leave Sarabande. . . it's an idea situation all around. . .
(18:05) [Dawn Reno] Hey, Darryl. How are you tonight?
(18:06) [Becca ] I haven't decided. I enjoy both, and I agree that the low residency program is ideal.
(18:06) [Darryl Darmin] I am doing quite well, how are you
(18:06) [Dawn Reno] Anyway, Becca, Nickole is definitely someone you could talk to about the program, its pros and cons. Since she's still working, she could tell you how that dovetails with writing.
(18:06) [Becca ] Hey Darryl.
(18:06) [Dawn Reno] I'm fine, Darryl.
(18:07) [Darryl Darmin] Hi Becca
(18:07) [Dawn Reno] We're waiting for Belle, and we can start. As I said in my email to all of you, we'll be going alphabetically, so you're "on" first, Darryl -- unless we get someone who's name comes before yours in the alphabet ;-)
(18:08) [Becca ] Nickole, maybe we should talk later, if you have time.
(18:08) [Dawn Reno] sheesh . . . WHOSE name. I've been grading 1101 essays tonight. Can you tell?
(18:08) [Nickole Brown] Guys, Belle just called me. She's trying to log on from a computer at Kinko's, and there seems to be some problem with their connection. She's on her way. . .
(18:08) [Darryl Darmin] Okay, is it one question at a time, or do we have to have several ready all at once?
(18:09) [Dawn Reno] Just one at a time, Darryl. Nickole, Belle must be going slightly nuts . . . I can't imagine trying to log on from a computer that wasn't my own.
(18:09) [Nickole Brown] Becca, feel free to contact me here at the office; I'd love to answer any questions about the program you might have.
(18:10) [Becca ] Thank you, Nickole.
(18:11) [Dawn Reno] Nickole, who do you have for an advisor this semester?
(18:12) [Nickole Brown] David Jauss. He's a poet and fiction writer both, so that works wonderfully for me. You might be familiar with his name through the articles he publishes with The AWP Writer's Chronicle.
(18:13) [Dawn Reno] Looks like it might just be us this evening. **Don't recognize his name, Nickole. He must be new to the program.
(18:13) [Dawn Reno] It's great to work with someone who writes in both genres. Not too many do (except for Syd Lea).
(18:14) [Dawn Reno] Darryl and Becca: Hope you both have some good questions for Belle. I'll add some of my own to keep the conversation going -- and Belle's really good about generating topics herself, so we should have fun. If you're the only two "here," you'll get *extra* credit!
(18:14) [Darryl Darmin] That works for me!
(18:15) [Becca ] Um, okay.
(18:15) [Dawn Reno] I figured it might, Darryl!
(18:15) [Darryl Darmin] I have one question I have been looking forward to asking, from there we will make it work.
(18:15) [Nickole Brown] Belle just called again. . . she can't seem to get through, but she's going to try a few more things. My guess is that a server must be down in DC or something. . . Dawn, have you heard from any of your students having trouble getting through?
(18:16) [Dawn Reno] No, I haven't heard from anyone, Nickole, but I'm home and they might be trying the school number.
(18:16) [Dawn Reno] You know, I've had problems reaching people in DC and NY since the 11th. I wonder if it has something to do with that?
(18:17) [Dawn Reno] I'll be right back. I'm going to check my school email and see if anyone
(18:17) [Dawn Reno] trying to get me
(18:18) [Dawn Reno] well, I'm not plugging in the right URL, I guess. Becca, is Kelly there? If she is, can you ask her the URL for me to check my LCCC email?
(18:18) [Becca ] sure hold on
(18:18) [Nickole Brown] Just got a message from "thetreehugger@hotmail.com"; he's lost .
(18:19) [Nickole Brown] Just got a message from "thetreehugger@hotmail.com"; he's lost .
(18:19) [Dawn Reno] That's a "she."
(18:19) [Dawn Reno] That's a "she."
(18:19) [Becca ] http://lcccmail.lakecity.cc.fl.us
(18:21) [Dawn] I can't get my school email, so I guess we'll just wait and twiddle our thumbs.
(18:23) [Dawn] Just to reassure you all: this usually goes very smoothly . . .
(18:23) [Nickole Brown] Belle's going to get one of the computer admin guys there at Kinko's to help her. . . we should give her at least a few more minutes. . .
(18:24) [Dawn] Okay, Nickole. While we're waiting, what did you all think of Belle's poetry?
(18:24) [Nickole Brown] Yeah, I think this would be the first time this has happened. . .
(18:25) [Becca ] There were some poems that I felt were really dark, but I love her language.
(18:25) [Dawn] Which ones did you think were dark, Becca?
(18:26) [Belle Waring] Hi Nickole. I'm on another computer. I will send you guys the print screen from the one that didn't work. SOrry.
(18:26) [Dawn] YAY!!!! Hi, Belle! How have you been?
(18:27) [Belle Waring] FIne and you
(18:27) [Dawn] I'm fine. Glad to "see" you again. I have two of my creative writing students here. Guess there are others having the same problem you did.
(18:27) [Nickole Brown] Hi, Belle! So happy to see you made it. And no need to apologize; I know it wasn't your fault.
(18:28) [Belle Waring] The NSA is probably tying up the DC lines
(18:28) [Dawn] Darryl, why don't you start since we're running late.
(18:28) [Darryl Darmin] okay, Ms Belle, What advise would you give to a student like myself who is not poetically inclined, and struggles when reading or writing of poetic materials?
(18:29) [Belle Waring] First i would ask you why are you bothering to try
(18:29) * Dawn is happy :)
(18:30) [Belle Waring] seriously, why are you bothering to try
(18:30) [Dawn] Darryl, don't be embarrassed. You can tell her it's because I teach poetry in the creative writing class!
(18:31) [Belle Waring] cmon darryl, fess up
(18:31) [Darryl Darmin] I am attempting to widen my range of writing, and it is required in this course.
(18:33) [Belle Waring] Fair 'nuf. OK. My advice is to get a tape of Dylan Thomas reading his own work, Under Milk Wood. Just listen to poetry for a while. Really try to get the music of it. I'm serious. Let it seduce you a little bit. Then think of what an eight year old boy wrote: "When you write a poem, it's like your mind is talking to you." Think of it as an extension of all the oral traditions...song & story out of
(18:35) [Belle Waring] ...song and story time out of mind. This thing is cutting me off! anyway, read some Sharon Olds maybe... THe Dead and the LIving is good. Or Adam Zagajewski. Get to the New Yorker online from Sept 11 2001 and read "One Must Praise This Mutilated WOrld." THen you will see what poetry is for.
(18:35) [Dawn] Belle has a good point, Darryl. If this class were a face2face rather than virtual, I'd show you a video of women reading their poetry.
(18:35) [Dawn] I'll put that video on hold in the library so you can see/hear what poetry is about.
(18:36) [Darryl Darmin] I will try to find the tape this week and see if it helps.
(18:36) [Belle Waring] Talk 2 me Darryl. What kind of music do you like
(18:36) [Darryl Darmin] I find the poems in your book to be …like parables put together to tell a story, however they would be easier to read if they were written as stories.
(18:36) [Darryl Darmin] I like classical, soft rock, country
(18:38) [Belle Waring] You may be right. THat is a compliment to call them parables. There is a strong narrative strain in my work (southern family ya know) but the poems jump around and play with language too much to be called simply narrative. OK. you like country? cool. Listen to the lyrics of some of the BETTER songs. They are terrific. Tell me what is the difference between those songs and poetry? Is there one?
(18:39) [Dawn] Who's Good point, Belle. I always play music/poetry for my students in Fresh Comp II. Darryl, were you in Comp I or II/
(18:39) [Darryl Darmin] I can feel just about any music I listen to. Maybe the key would be to listen to an artist as he / she reads the poems they conducted. That way maybe I could fell the musical intent or story of the poem.
(18:40) [Belle Waring] Look at how those country songs play with these elements: image, tone, and content. How many new ways can you say "She broke my heart?" If you separate the lyrics from the music, really look at the words, investigate the figurative language: "My baby was slicer than deer guts on a door knob." What is your favorite love song?
(18:40) [Darryl Darmin] Comp I
(18:40) [Belle Waring] Not slicer than deer guts. SLICKER than deer guts on a door knob.
(18:41) [Nickole Brown] ick
(18:41) * Dawn nods...
(18:41) [Darryl Darmin] HAHA that is a question I wish I could just spit out. Mindy and I are planning our weddin and we have yet to pick the song. We have 6 weeks left.
(18:41) [Becca ] yeah, ick
(18:42) [Dawn] Obviously, the point Belle is making is that the lyrics speak to each of us individually -- just as poetry does.
(18:42) [Darryl Darmin] UNchained Melody is one
(18:42) [Belle Waring] OK, so you can go to a public reading, or watch videos, or watch Shakespeare. Hamlet is cool. ANyway, I'm just making a point on how to warm up to poetry. Get close to the sources you already enjoy. ANalyze them a little bit. Look at the craft. Then you can start to branch out. Poetry is one of the best ways I know to say something deep and important and lasting. NExt questions?
(18:43) [Dawn] Ok, Becca, here you go.
(18:44) [Becca ] Have you always written poetry or did your writing develop as a tool to deal with the sights and sounds experienced as a nurse?
(18:46) [Belle Waring] Good question. THe answer is: both. I wrote poetry as a kid: a lot of ppl do: I just didn't have the sense to know when to quit. Later, as a nurse, I couldn't write poetry about nursing itself until long after I had left nursing. I was writing about other stuff until then. Love mostly, the meaning of life, etc. So poetry was both a way of life I developed as a kid and a way of coping as an adult.
(18:46) [Nickole Brown] ick
(18:46) [Belle Waring] I want to make the point that poetry is not just "Therapy.
(18:47) [Nickole Brown] I have no idea how that second ick just popped up. . . weirdness.
(18:47) [Nickole Brown] I have no idea how that second ick just popped up. . . weirdness.
(18:47) [Nickole Brown] I have no idea how that second ick just popped up. . . weirdness.
(18:47) [Dawn] So many people DO believe that poetry is therapy, Belle, that I'd like to hear you address how it becomes "art."
(18:48) [Darryl Darmin] Thats okay, one of my messages I had to type twice because it never posted
(18:48) [Belle Waring] sorry I cut myself off. It's not just therapy. It's a natural outpouring of feeling like water springing out of a rock. It is an emanation of health as well as pain. It is an essential human gift. Really. I worked with kids for over five years and they write just to write, whether they are sick or well.
(18:48) [Belle Waring] AHA. How does it become art? In a word: REVISION. I had to learn not to go splat on the page and call it a poem. Number two: I had to READ POETRY.
(18:49) [Dawn] Can you talk about revision a bit? I think my students hear me say it so much that they think it's just me trying to teach. Maybe it'll be better hearing it from someone else.
(18:50) [Belle Waring] When you read poetry it magically gets into your work. Sooner or later. Maybe it takes years. The whole process is a little mysterious. It's really important to read it out loud to perceive the sound patternings. Not just rhyme, but rhythm, assonance, consonance. OK< ready for the quiz? How many kinds of rhyme are there. Will answer revision question in next posting
(18:51) [michelle pfeffer] hello everyone! I had problems getting in, but I'm here now.
(18:51) [Dawn] Hi, Chelle!
(18:52) [Belle Waring] REVISION REVISION REVISION. Any questions? Seriously, one of the best ways to revise a poem is to pretend somebody else wrote it. Write it in form, then take it out of form. Write it in first person, then third. Triangulate in the middle of it and write from teh point of view of the dog. Tolstoy even does this at one point in Anna Karenina. Not a poem but...see my poem "Fever, Mood and Crows" 4 ex
(18:52) [Jeff Willis] Hello, sorry I am late but I had to work and I also had problems getting on but I called Nickole.
(18:53) [Dawn] Ah, now we have a "full" class. Hi, Jeff. I think you're up next, Chelle. Question for Belle?
(18:53) [michelle pfeffer] I was curious about your title "Dark Blonde," where did you come up with it. I know you have dark blonde hair, but is there a deeper underlining.
(18:54) [Belle Waring] For example, the poem swings around like a camera on a dolly and starts to talk from the point of view of a passerby. It completely changed the tone and content of the piece. Otherwise I would never have been able to finish the poem. Try this, it's really fun. You might learn something surprising. Remember Frost's dictum: No surprise for the writer--no surprise for the reader.
(18:54) [Belle Waring] Dark blonde is in "Shots
(18:54) [Nickole Brown] Glad to see you two made it okay. And when you're done here, make sure you register with your full e-mail address so that I can send you a copy of this chat (Michelle, I only got the half of your address before the @)
(18:54) [Belle Waring] Sorry cut myself off. DB is in "Shots." I'm going for the oxymoron. She's blonde but she's not white bread.
(18:55) [Belle Waring] ALso DB is kind of CHandleresque. Moody maybe.
(18:55) [Dawn] Glad SOMEONE is fighting for us blondes and the fact that we're not always white bread, Belle.
(18:56) [Dawn] How about you, Jeff? Do you have a question for Belle?
(18:56) [Nickole Brown] I'll second that. . .
(18:56) [Dawn] Ooooh . . . three blondes here tonight. No, four. Chelle's blonde, too.
(18:56) [Belle Waring] Naturally she is given a certain place in society not available to a migrant workers child, and in California anymore that means Mexican pretty much. She is questioning her own place in the world. She is saying.. what? what do you think?
(18:57) [Jeff Willis] I was just wondering how you came up with such good poetry and make it sound as though you have been there?
(18:58) [Belle Waring] Great question. Well for one thing, I am very, very old.
(18:58) [Nickole Brown] Now, Belle. . . we know better than that. . .
(18:58) [Dawn] Yeah, right, Belle . . .
(18:59) [michelle pfeffer] You were a nurse for some time, do you feel that you have developed a deeper understanding of life in general to portray in your poetry, or has the experience left you to feel as an activist through your poetry?
(18:59) [Becca ] So, does that mean I have to wait a long time before I am any good?
(18:59) * Becca is happy :)
(19:00) [Jeff Willis] Does it just come natural to write poetry like that or from experience?
(19:00) [Belle Waring] And for another thing, my grandpa used to read me Shakespeare when I was little. And recite Coleridge at the dinner table. And my mom played Beethoven for me. OK Ms. Pfeffer, good question. Activist, yes, I was an activist as a youth. I wish I could be an activist through poetry. I guess I just try to bear witness to what ppl are going through. That is all I can manage at the moment. As for waitin
(19:00) [Belle Waring] As for waiting, you are not waiting. YOU ARE PRACTICING YOUR ART.
(19:01) [Dawn] Hear, hear. And practice does not necessarily EVER make perfect in writing.
(19:01) [Becca ] GREAT!
(19:01) [Belle Waring] Poetry is both natural and unnatural. It is the spontaneous overflow of powerful feelings (Wordsworth) which is crafted. It is a tricky balance. What do you think?
(19:02) [Nickole Brown] Oh, don't be too distressed, Becca, ruin and wreck keeps us poets together. . .
(19:02) [Belle Waring] do you guys want to run over a few minutes since we started late or must you go?
(19:02) [Dawn] You all should be able to answer that question since you've written creative nonfiction and fiction in this class already.
(19:03) [Darryl Darmin] I have time to stay
(19:03) [Nickole Brown] That's fine with me, Belle. . .
(19:03) [Belle Waring] Ruin and wreck. That is great.
(19:03) [Jeff Willis] Poetry to me personally is very unnatural since I have very little experience.
(19:03) [Belle Waring] OK shall we run till 6:20?
(19:04) [Darryl Darmin] sounds good to me
(19:04) [Dawn] ok w/me
(19:04) [michelle pfeffer] That will be fine with me.
(19:05) [Dawn] Okay, let's open it to whatever questions you have.
(19:05) [Belle Waring] OK, you say you have little experience and I believe you. Now think back through the mists of time and recall the following: Nursery rhymes. Good luck rhymes. Bad luck rhymes (Step on a crack, break your mothers back). Mnemonic rhymes (thirty days hath september). Love songs on the radio. Are these poetry?
(19:05) [Becca ] I believe it is natural, a need to get the inside stuff on the outside
(19:05) [Darryl Darmin] Do you have anyone edit your poetry, or do you edit all your own work?
(19:05) [Jeff Willis] That is fine with me.
(19:07) [Darryl Darmin] I guess we are raised with an implied understanding if it rhymes it is a type of poetry.
(19:07) [Jeff Willis] I was just going to let you know that I enjoyed your poems that I read.
(19:07) [Belle Waring] Aha. Both. I have some really good friends, one or two, with whom I trust my life, my cat, and my poems. One is a guy I went to school with, a trombonist with a very good ear. He has read everything, just about. He tells me what to do and I do it. Unless I don't feel like it. Seriously, I need feedback. If TOny can't look at my stuff, I put it aside and let it marinate for a while. THen I return.
(19:07) [Belle Waring] Thanks Jeff.
(19:07) [Darryl Darmin] Not just words, but phrases.
(19:08) [Dawn] And Tony's got SUCH a great ear . . . for poetry and jazz trombone ;-)
(19:08) [michelle pfeffer] Did you ever think you would be a published writer? What motivated you to publish? And do feel you write differently now that you know many other people will read what you have written?
(19:08) [Belle Waring] SOmetimes what one needs is time to let a poem rest. SOmetimes the probelm with the poem is not so much literary as psychological. You want to say something but you don't understand the emotional process. You are baffled by feeling.
(19:10) [Jeff Willis] How long did it take you to become a succesful writer like you are know?
(19:10) [Belle Waring] Interesting ? about publishing. No, I did not expect to publish this early in life. I thought maybe by the time I was sixty. HOnestly, what motivated me was my crazy, crazy boyfriend who locked me in a room until I promised to send a MS. to a contest. So I did. And after a year of that, I got lucky and won, and that was the AWP Award and the Univ of Pittsburgh contract. I was 37.
(19:12) [Becca ] what is the most difficult part of the writing process for you and how do you work through it?
(19:12) [Belle Waring] Thank you for calling me successful. I think success is if you are happy with your work. For a long time all I did was write poems for my family and friends on their birthdays, weddings, etc. I'm not kidding. I just wanted to make people laugh. I was a humorous poet. That's pretty funny when you look at some of the more gruesome hospital poems. But it's true
(19:13) [Belle Waring] The most difficult part is getting stuck and hating the work and hating yourself for thinking you had anything to say inthe first place. Sometimes you need to get up and dance or see a movie in teh theatre with your friends. Sometimes you can apply the elements of craft. As in, take a poem in and out of form. I wrote an elegy for a friend who died, and I've been working on it off and on since she
(19:13) [Jeff Willis] About that hospital poem I do agree that it was pretty gruesome myself.
(19:15) [Dawn] Are you talking about Lynda Hull?
(19:15) [Darryl Darmin] What made you write the poem "Before Penicillin"? Do you know someone this happened to?
(19:15) [michelle pfeffer] Are you a poet like Emily Dickenson, who would write little bits and pieces of a poem every now and again, and than past the pieces together?
(19:16) [Belle Waring] ...since she died seven years ago. I made it free verse, sonnet, terza rima. It's still not right. Every year I take it out and look at it. There the problem is emotional, not literary. There's something I'm scared of, or just do not understand. Maybe you need to be older to write certain poems. Maybe you need to understand yourself very well. It is never easy to deal with but poetry tries.
(19:16) [Dawn] GREAT questions -- I'm proud of you guys ;-)
(19:16) [michelle pfeffer] 'past' is suppossed to be 'paste'
(19:17) [Belle Waring] Yes, Lynda Hull. Penicillin was for my pop, Elmar S. Waring. My grandfather. Some poems I piece together over time, some come out in a rush, and some are really constipated little cacitas that just won't come at all.
(19:17) [Belle Waring] Do you guys want to start winding down? Any burning questions?
(19:18) [Nickole Brown] Just to let you guys know, there are several of Belle's previous talks with students posted at http://sarabande.tool.net/sie/chatarchive/. (By the way, that URL is a temporary address; it's our new website that's not yet "live.)
(19:18) [Dawn] Yes, let's wrap it up, Belle. I have to go eat.
(19:18) [Jeff Willis] This has been a fun chat and has been nice talking to you in the last 30 minutes
(19:19) [Belle Waring] OK thanks everybody for staying late and being so patient. This was fun. Nice to meet you all.
(19:19) [Dawn] For all of my students, we'll have a live chat with me next week. Let me know if there are any days you can't make it -- and Belle, as usual, it was great.
(19:19) [Nickole Brown] Thanks!
(19:19) [Darryl Darmin] Thank you, I will look for the works you suggested
(19:19) [Jeff Willis] I do agree with you Mrs Reno I'm hungry also and I've got to go back to work.
(19:19) [michelle pfeffer] It nice to talk to such a gifted writer. Thank you very much.
(19:19) [Becca ] thanks for your time I have enjoyed your work.
(19:20) [Dawn] Nickole, if you'll send me this chat, I'll forward it to the students who couldn't make it. G'night everyone.
(19:20) [Belle Waring] Dawn, I'll be talking to Tony and Suzanne soon, and I'll say we were online together. Good night everyone. Nickole, may I call you when I get home?
(19:20) [Darryl Darmin] Goodnight
(19:20) [Jeff Willis] Thank you for your time and good night
(19:20) [michelle pfeffer] goodbye
(19:20) [Belle Waring] Or do you just want to wait until tomorrow? I can call from work.
(19:21) [Becca ] good night
(19:21) [Dawn] Belle, I just sent Tony an email. Will be calling him again soon, too, so tell him I said hello and that I'll talk to him later. You've been wonderful.
(19:22) [Belle Waring] Roger.
(19:22) [Nickole Brown] Good night, everyone.
(19:22) [Dawn] Nickole, I'll talk to you later. Thanks.
(19:22) * Nickole Brown is happy :)
(19:22) [Belle Waring] Nick, may I call you from work tomorrow? This weird guy was hogging the phone and everytime I ran over to use it he kinda scared me a little. He thinks it's his private office.
(19:23) [Nickole Brown] Please do. I'll be here. . .
(19:24) [Belle Waring] OK thanks again and sorry for the glitch. I learned a lesson. I never knew that a problem like that could be the computer itself. Duh, man. OK signing off.