Interview with Kirby Gann and Eric Schwerer's Imaginative Writing Class at University of Pittsburgh- December 2, 2002

Betsey: Good morning and welcome to the Sarabande in Education Chatroom! Today, Eric Schwerer's Imaginative Writing Class will be interviewing editor/author, Kirby Gann.

Kirby: Hello everyone, good morning.

Teacher Eric: Hi. We (my students) are all Freshman. It is very cold here this a.m. in the mountains of Johnstown, PA. Students are still coming in and logging on...
We have been doing poetry all semester and are now doing fiction (!) Our assignment: write a story in the first person p.ov. We have as our models Moody's and La Salle's stories and Kriby's Intro...

Kirby: wow, that sounds like heavy load!

Jenn H.: Good morning everyone!

Eric Sakmar: Good morning!

Kasey H.: Good morning!!

Eric Sakmar: My first question is, where did you find all of these works? Do you know the authors? From other collections?

Kirby: Hi -- we found the works by researching the literary journals, and grabbed a couple from well-known books/authors (John Hawkes, Billy Collins). I don't think we knew anyone, personally.

Gregg B.: Ah, finally.

Gregg B.: Hello!

Jenn H.: I realize that we are on a time schedule and there is an inevitable due date. I feel like I have to think of a fabulous outline for my story, like Moody, but I am at a complete loss for an idea. Any suggestions?

Steve Z.: I am now on.

Kirby: The idea originated with finding Moody's story in The Paris Review, and coming across the Gass essay about the same time. They seemed to be on to something, and informed one another in a way we thought worth exploring.

Kasey H.: What was your personal favorite piece? and why?

Gregg B.: Steve: Good effort.

Kirby: Jenn -- I don't think you need to work from an outline; you might be better off discovering the story as you write it, then go back and revise

Kasey H.: YAY Jenn me too...Kirby do you have any ideas??

Jenn H.: I think we're all pretty much stuck

Kasey H.: wow...that's different advice. In HS my English teachers always made us outline first.

Gregg B.: Not to brag, but me = good.

Gregg B.: I think...

Kirby: Kasey: my favorites are Gudding's poems, Moody and Chamoiseau, and the Gass essay. Why? They're just perfectly-structured pieces, and yet seem to be bursting at the seams.

Raychal S.: I have not started my story yet, but i've outlined stories before....it helps a little i think

Steve Z.: How do you get such structure as you write?

Kirby: Re: outlines -- I'm talking about fiction, not an essay. In HS was your teacher talking about essays? Outlines help, then. In fiction, it may help to figure out an outline once you've drafted the story, as a way of keeping yourself focussed.

Ashley: What gave you the idea to write this book?

Malcolm: I have been having a problem starting my story and getting it into a real world setting, instead of a fantasy type setting. Do you have any suggestions that may help with me with that?

Kirby: Structure should come about naturally -- once you find what the main event of a piece is, and what's important about it, most everything else becomes apparent. At least, I think so.

mike: Hello Kirby, I was actually just wondering when u decided to become a publisher, and if u think it was the right choice for yourself?

Kirby: The book idea came about because we had the opportunity to do an anthology, and we wanted to say something with it. Minimalism has been the main fare on the literary scene throughout my adulthood, and we wanted to stress the other possibilities.

Gregg B.: Kirby: Which of the works in Excess was your favorite?

Gregg B.: If you have one, that is.

Keith: I kinda feel bad for you Kirby, for the first few mins your going to be attacked by questions. But on to my question. What do YOU do when your at a loss for ideas and your story seems to be at a stand still?

Kasey H.: I had a super hard time trying to think of a simple idea to write about. What's easiest, completely making something up, or trying to expand on a personal experience?

Ashley: Oh I see, is this the only book that you have put together? Or, have you done some others?

Steve Z.: Wow, you are getting swamped.

Kirby: Keith: if I get stuck, I try to ride it out by re-reading what is already there -- in the hopes I've missed a possible avenue out of my problem. If I stay stuck for a long time (weeks), sometimes I just work on something else for a while, then go back to the previous story with fresh eyes.

Jenn H.: see, that's the problem, we don't have weeks to sort it out

Gregg B.: Yeah, Eric like to crack the whip, so to speak.

Betsey: Let''s make sure to ask Kirby one question at a time!

Gregg B.: *likes

Steve Z.: Exactly!

Kasey H.: we only have a few days instead of weeks. How long do you think I should re read before I start over?

Steve Z.: I'm so so sorry.

Eric Sakmar: Do you like to start with an initial idea...or a 'random' first sentence?

Kirby: Kasey: neither way is easy (to me). But my personal experience is that, if I just start writing -- a piece of description, an overheard conversation, or even a thought that came directly from reading someone else -- then a story starts to build on its own. The task is to learn how to recognize the writing on its own terms and possibilities.

Steve Z.: How long did you take to find all the works here? Did you decide on a whim to make the book, or was it always something you wanted to do?

Malcolm: we kinda are running out of time and are running into the proverbial brick wall with ideas and it doesn't help that it we only have a couple of weeks to do the story.

Steve Z.: Oooh, a proverbial brick wall... me likey Mr. Malky.

Kirby: Steve: it was something we had wanted to do for a while. It took us about a year of searching for the works we wanted (and to figure out how to pay for them), and then we wrote the introductions together, and that was it!

Malcolm: what do you find is the best way to come up with an idea with a short story

Kirby: Re: the brick wall. If you're under a deadline, sometimes just blasting through the wall is the only way. Just keep writing, trying to figure a way that works. Deadlines can be helpful inspiration, actually.

Kasey H.: Did you have ideas of what types of writing you wanted in this book? Or did you just look for things you liked?

Teacher Eric: I am making everyone, under penalty of death, write in the 1st person p.o.v. Is the second step, after one just starts writing (a descriptive sketch, conversation, whatever) to then go back and look for evidence of "a mind alive on the page"?

Gregg B.: Wait, DEATH? I thought you said five years hard labor...

Steve Z.: I'm too young and important to die.

Malcolm: Penalty of death when did this occur?!?

Kirby: Teacher Eric: Yes! That's what I mean by recognizing the writing on its own terms. Look for the possibilities in the first few paragraphs you've written down.

Kasey H.: teacher Eric will you be checking these and giving them back with ideas of what needs fixed like out other manuscripts?

Jenn H.: Kirby: I noticed a definitely style with Moody's writing as well as La Salle's. It's almost prose-ish. Does all fiction follow this same pattern? Or all "good" fiction

Kirby: As for story ideas: certainly you've had an interesting experience in your life. Write about it from someone else's P.O.V. than your own. Or, often I get ideas from reading other authors closely.

Teacher Eric: Kirby: What do possibilities look like? I mean, you are a fiction writer...what do you look for when you are trying to start a story?

Steve Z.: Following Jenn's question, is either pattern easier to write?

Teacher Eric: Kasey: Nope. But you could come to my office hours.

Betsey: Slow down a little, guys...it's very early in the morning afterall! Let Kirby catch up.

Teacher Eric: jenn: what do you mean by prose-ish? Tell us some more

Steve Z.: I'm so so sorry.

Kirby: I try to find any kind of tension -- or even curiosity, which can come by a certain energy to the voice, or a weird conundrum; anything that demands you write down another sentence, or sets up a situation that you want to explore.

Kirby: Betsey: thank you! I'm trying to drink some coffee here, you guys.

Jenn H.: Hmm, I mean that there is a playfull tone to their writing, and it isn't like most fiction, for example Michael Chrichton

Steve Z.: Yes, coffee is the best morning bean... drink on, yo!

Malcolm: mmmmm coffee.....

Kirby: a-HA! Yes, Jenn, you've recognized something very important about style. Crichton reports a plot. The two writers you mentioned are concerned (primarily, and in these two pieces) with voice

Jenn H.: Teacher Eric: Did that help?

Jenn H.: Voice...tone...style...what's the difference?

Steve Z.: Should we plot a lot?

Gregg B.: Yeah, Moody seemed to just be stacking weird occurence after weird occurence (a revelation on life in a chicken suit, for example.) He seems to have fun with his stories.

Teacher Eric: I agree with you Jenn. Playful Voice. The first person narrator in both those stories seems to be playing with us the readers and the author in turn seems to be playing with his invented spearker

Steve Z.: Or voice it out?

Teacher Eric: ...invented speaker

Raychal S.: Does that mean that Moody and LaSalle have sort of started a new genre of fiction? Because they don't sound like anything i've ever read before

Malcolm: so your saying to write successfully to focus your concern on voice then on reporting the plot

Jenn H.: Good point, I wondered that myself

Kirby: Yes, Moody has his thumb on the pulse of absurdity, that's for sure. What's so great is that he also nails us down with tenderness and compassion for that poor narrator.

Kasey H.: me too!

Teacher Eric: steve: maybe plot has to come after voice..

Raychal: I would say that yes they are part of a new wave, maybe not more than 30 years old or so...

Kirby: Malcolm: well, yes and no, it depends on what you're trying to write. But style (or voice) has a huge effect on your readers, and you want to be very conscious of what the effect is.

Kasey H.: Why do you thnk they started this new way of writing? weren't they a little scared people wouldn't like it?

Steve Z.: So... how was your thanksgiving?

Steve Z.: Just a thought... then back to lit!

Gregg B.: Surely it depends in part on the author in some ways. Critchton really doesn't have a style per se, but Moody and La Salle have one that sort of just slaps you in the face.

Kirby: I mean (Steve), plot can come first in the sense of: you have an idea for a story where a man is blind, living in the same house with his mistress and her lover. That can get things going, but to create the strongest effect, you need style.

Gregg B.: Steve: I had pumpkin pie. All is well.

Steve Z.: AWESOME!

Kasey H.: yes I agree with you Gregg B (:

Raychal S.: I have banana cream pie in my dorm room...yummy

Jenn H.: right! and that's what I think everyone here, (Imag. Writing) is trying to create in their story's but are coming up short with a good idea and a decent identity for their speaker

Brooke A.: at home there isn't radioactive gravy like we have here

Eric Sakmar: Should there be more thought put into how it's written than what it is about?

Ashley: I definately have a hard time making my stories have their own voice or tone. Sometimes they just drag on.

Jenn H.: Easy there Chief

Kasey H.: it almost seems like it doesn't matter what the story is really about, just how it is presented.

Steve Z.: I think a good persona is one who the reader feels sorry for... but its kinda used to death... is there another good persona?
Chief Running Water?

Gregg B.: (That's chicken gravy. And my high school's had WAY more U-235 in it than this "weak" stuff they have here.)

Raychal S.: I think it's easier to write plots than to create a voice...how do you go from interesting plots to a story based more on voice?

Kirby: Eric: my personal tastes tend to be more interested in how a writer presents things, rather than what they are respresenting. The best scenario of course would be that the what and how are both fascinating; but I can get by with a slight story told really well. In fiction, that is.

Kasey H.: I had home made noodles for thanksgiving...no one can beat home made noodles!!! mmmm

Steve Z.: Whoa kids, one question at a time... and back to the literature, ok? This is my time to learn.

Jenn H.: It's hard to show and not tell when writing fiction

Lindsay : So is style pretty much measured in how strong of a reaction it evokes in the reader?

Steve Z.: Yeah Jenn! I wholeheartedly agree.

Kasey H.: very hard Jenn yes yes I know

Kirby: If you want to create a voice: just start writing in the first person about someone/something that really bothers you, or that you really love. Or, try to write something in the voice of someone you know well -- a parent or sibling or best friend. You'll discover the possibilities of a story just by taking down the way these people speak, and can start creating something immediately
Raychal S.: i have a hard time showing, i just like to get down whatever is going on but to me it always sounds boring

Kasey H.: won't it evoke different reactions for different readers?

Malcolm: steve you were the one who asked about thanksgiving remember

Gregg B.: Kirby: What is it that draws you into a story? Description? The protagonist?

Kirby: these are good questions but I'm having a hard time keeping up. hold on a second

Steve Z.: I am putting the train back on the tracks Malky... cleaning up after myself, If King Malky will allow.

Gregg B.: Okay.

Jenn H.: I never thought of taking the voice from a sibling, that could be interesting! Thanks for the tip!

Malcolm: i can show but it takes away from the point i get across but when i just tell it takes away from a scene as a whole how do you suppose i can correct this.

Kirby: showing versus telling: not enough space here to go into detail on that, but there are many good writing books out there that can help you. To me, the question is how to balance the two; if a story is all showing, it can be just as boring as one that's all telling.

Raychal S.: good question Malcolm

Jenn H.: exactly, where's the happy medium?

Steve Z.: What sort of show:tell ratio is best, thinkest you?

Kirby: What draws me into a story is some 'point of authority' on the author's part -- something that makes me trust this author, that suggests he/she has something strange and interesting to say. It can be an evocative title, unfamiliar or energetic phrasing, an unfamiliar situation, etc.

Gregg B.: I see... thank you!

Kirby: Showing/telling -- every case, every story is unique. Again, I stress you have to meet the story on its own terms. There's no formula.

Jenn H.: Kirby, where did you go to college?

Ashley: So, do you suggest an outline or should we just sit down and see how it flows?

Steve Z.: So basically... your persona should show a lot but tell some, have a point of authority and have more voice than plot?

Steve Z.: Ok, sounds like I have blueprints to GENIOUS!

Malcolm: or should your persona tell you a lot have a point of authority and equal out the voice and the plot

Kasey H.: I have written short storied before, not this long haha, but it always helped me to just write exactly what I was thinking as I thought it...even if I thought it would sound bad. Then when I went back to read over my work, sometimes it actually worked really well with the rest of the story...

Gregg B.: *genius

Kasey H.: stories*

Betsey: Hold on guys! Give Kitby a second for these last 3 questions.

Steve Z.: thanks greggy, my little spelling bee

Kirby: You can tell something that's pertinent to a story, but not necessary to explore (i.e., "they met in a cafe"). But you would want to show (in this case) that couple falling in love. Does that help?

Malcolm: so your saying just sit back and relax and see what flows out

Steve Z.: Indeed it does.

Kirby: Jenn -- I went to a small college in Lexington KY called Transylvania University.

Gregg B.: That makes a good bit o' sense to me.

Steve Z.: When I was moving to Pennsylvania, I thought I was going to Transylvania.

Gregg B.: Since you're such a genious. :P

Steve Z.: I was young and naive.

Keith: That had to help your creative outflow, any place with a name like that must be full of fun thoughts and idea's.

Kirby: Steve -- re: your question about balance and p.o.v and authority: exactly!

Malcolm: you still are steve

Gregg B.: Just kidding, Steve.

Ashley: Yeah, I agree!

Kirby: Malcolm: yes, being relaxed is essential. I realize that can be hard when you're tyring to get a class assignment done and you don't have much time, but you don't want to force things too much and end up with garbage.

Steve Z.: I was just summing the whole thing up as what I thought... just to see if I had the right idea.

Raychal S.: What was your major in college?

Steve Z.: Computer Science.

Steve Z.: oh, Kirby... hehehe

Steve Z.: whoops

Kasey H.: Kirby: what do you do to relax? DO you go somewhere special? write at a certain time? listen to music?

Kirby: Doesn't matter what name your college has -- a lot of things happen there that can influence your writing later!

Gregg B.: ...

Teacher Eric: if you relax, you can put yourself in a place where style is able provoke a reaction in You the writer. If you relax and get into a zone, you will find you can write until your language begins to interest you as a writer. don't worry about the reader(unitl revision, that is).
so yes, how does one relax....(?)


Keith: Teacher Eric, you've been quiet for a while, are youu planning our death's already? Can I have a fun one?

Kirby: I majored in English and minored in philosophy. A real geek, yes. But I played soccer, too, and in a rock band. See, it's all about balance.

Brooke A.: soccer is the best

Steve Z.: I agree... a name is just a label, and labels come off with lots of water. I bet ole Tran U was quite the place.

Raychal S.: Did you write music for your band? Did that influence your writing at all?

Steve Z.: Good question.

Keith: I'm thinkin the music kept you alive there

Malcolm: soccer is definitely the best

Kirby: Eric: hey, that's exactly what I was trying to say. You said it better! But how to relax? I try not to think about anything but what I'm working on, and try too not to be anxious about whether it "succeeds" or not. Until later, that is.

Raychal S.: yes soccer is cool

Steve Z.: Music and food, Keith.

Gregg B.: (That's how I stay alive.)

Jenn H.: Kirby: What genre of creative writing comes to you more easily, or is your favorite? Poetry, prose, fiction short story?

Raychal S.: good question

Keith: I've learned to go without food sence I lost my pitt id and don't have money to get a new one.
Bless you Steve, (He sneezed)

Steve Z.: But if you know its not succeeding, do you simply stop and write a whole new thing?

Malcolm: Kirby: do you find it easier to write real world fiction or fantasy fiction

Steve Z.: I am blessed... halleluia.

Gregg B.: Keith: Have you bothered to look for it?

Kirby: Fiction is my favorite. I have a novel of my own coming out in the spring, called "The Barbarian Parade."

Ashley: that sounds interesting

Steve Z.: That title rocks.

Brooke A.: keith you can have some of my guest meals

Jenn H.: Can you tell us about it?

Steve Z.: Are there really barbarians?

Raychal S.: i have some guest meals left too

Steve Z.: 'Cause if there are, count me in.

Teacher Eric: I relax by thinking: okay, in one hour I am going to write. Then I play loud music, walk fast, read great writing over and over (like Moody or La Salle) , then I lay down on the floor and then I start writing. And I write all kinds of junk for as long as I can, maybe 40 minutes or so. THen I go back a day later and find maybe one sentence there and cut the rest.

How long did it take you to write your novel?

Malcolm: keith likes taco

Kasey H.: Kirby:what do you do if you feel something you are writing is not as successful as you planned? like Steve asked, do you start over?

Raychal S.: that title makes me think of Barbie for some reason

Kirby: Malcolm: you asked this earlier and I didn't respond. Sorry! I find realistic fiction more compelling, because you have a much smaller palette of tools to work with. Fantasy -- if can invent perpetually, great. I can't, unfortunately.

Kirby: There are barbarians, yes, but not like against the romans or anything. it's a contemporary tale. It's full of bad people doing bad things.

Steve Z.: Uh oh... is it set in Vegas?

Gregg B.: I'm going to read it. "Bad things" interest me.

Betsey: Just a warning...we have about 10 minutes left!

Malcolm: hmmm... i may have to check out the barbarian parade sounds like fun

Steve Z.: Thanks bets.

Jenn H.: Can you give us one last piece of advice for our stories?

Eric Sakmar: How do you know (what are some signs) when a writing has stopped 'succeeding'?

Kirby: Uhm, no, Vegas isn't a factor in the book.

Teacher Eric: Kasey and Steve:
so, I am always starting over and I would guess Kirby is too. When I was younger (in college) I thought every time I wrote it had to count.

Malcolm: when revising your work what is the most grueling task in your opinion

Kirby: Eric made a good point earlier. I often read another writer before I set down to my own work, too. In the past I've even typed out long excerpts from other writers whom I admire. It can help get the juices flowing.

Malcolm: and when do you know your done

Ashley: I can relate to that every time I write something I start it over and over again until it sounds right.

Steve Z.: So sometimes you scrap an entire piece of work, just because its not working at that moment?

Steve Z.: Hmmm...

Jenn H.: It's frustrating sometimes

Kasey H.: Teacher Eric: do you try to use the same idea in your second or even third draft as you did in the first, but for some reason decided you didn't like?

Lindsay : I think that that's why I have a hard time relaxing and getting into "the zone" b/c when you're being graded on your writing, it has to count, right? Plus we're on a tight schedule.

Malcolm: or do you keep that idea and start it over from a new angle?

Ashley: Yupper

Kirby: Malcolm: sometimes you don't ever think a piece is perfectly "done" -- you just get to the point where you abandon it because you can't do anything more with it.

Kasey H.: or do you start completely fresh with a whole new idea?

Steve Z.: I see... that cleared it it, Kirby.

Steve Z.: *it up

Kirby: The hardest part of revising, for me, is figuring out what the story is trying to accomplish. It's odd; as an editor, I'm able to spot the focus of someone else's work very quickly; but in my own, I'm always aware of other possibilities. So it takes me a long time to finish (or abandon) my own writing.

Gregg B.: Kirby: Do you reach an impasse while writing a story often? Or is it a rare thing for you?

Raychal S.: Yes...how do you cure your writer's block?

Teacher Eric: Lots of final questions here that are worth asking over and over again. On WEdnesday we will look over what has been said here and keep asking these questions.
Betsey and Kirby:
Thank you so much for your time and patience (!)
You have given us a great opportunity to get alot out into the air and think about

Gregg B.: Yes, thanks so much!

Kirby: Gregg: depends on the day. Sometimes it feels I'm at an impasse the moment I put pen to paper. Other times I'll write pages and pages and everything goes easy and I'm certain I'm a genius -- then I read over what's there and find ten sentences worth keeping. It can be brutal! Impasses happen, but you can always work with what is there.

Steve Z.: Thanks to everyone for putting up with my stupid... mornings dislike me.

Kasey H.: Thank you (:

Jenn H.: Yes, thank you!

Gregg B.: Thanks.

Ashley: Thanks!

Lindsay : I got a lot out of this...thanks!

Kirby: If you're really blocked, try working on something else, or go for a walk (alone), or listen to music. Get your head into something else, then take another look at your problem.

Malcolm: thank you kirby for your hints and insights and hopefully i will be able to use them to better my writings

Raychal S.: Thanks Kirby!

Eric Sakmar: Very helpful, thank you!!

Kirby: I hope I was helpful, you guys. Great questions! You must have an interesting class.

Steve Z.: Whats your favorite music?

Betsey: Okay, our time is up...thank you all so much and a special thank you to Kirby! I'll e-mail a transcript of this chat to Eric (Teacher Eric, that is).

Keith: Thanks for tryin to keep with 12 kids

Malcolm: very interesting

Steve Z.: I like punk and hard rock.

Steve Z.: noooooo....
Gregg B.: Yes, adios!

Keith: Me too steve

Steve Z.: ok bye

Kirby: I like Wilco and Beck a lot

Brooke A.: punk rock! woot woot

Kirby: and Tom Waits

Malcolm: yes steve listens to good music

Keith: Sweet! Beck!

Betsey: Eric (Teacher, again), see you at 11 then?!

Kirby: see you at 11!

Teacher Eric: yes, "see" you both at 11...
any requests for how we approach things at 11?

Steve Z.: BYE!!!!!!!!

Betsey: I think things went well, Eric ....and Kirby and I both had a great time!