Second Interview with Kirby Gann and Eric Schwerer's Imaginative Writing Class at University of Pittsburgh- December 2, 2002

Betsey: Good morning and welcome to the Sarabande in Education Chatroom! Today, Eric Schwerer's Imaginative Writing Class will be interviewing editor/author, Kirby Gann.

Kirby: hello everyone, Kirby here.

Teacher E: Hello again Kirby and Betsey
and
Hello class...
Kirby did an on-line chat with my 9 am class. There were 11 of us. Now there are 18 (!) So please, give Kirby some time to respond and don't flood him with questions...

Jonathan H.: Kirby, when you write short stories, do you plan out everything in the plot, or do you just write and see where the story ends up?

Kirby: Hi Jonathan. I tend to write without a specific outline. Once I have a first draft, then I try to see how the structure might be best made.

Kirby: The problem with sticking too close to a planned plot is that the writing, the story, the drama can come out too stiff and forced.

Courtney S.: How would you suggest adding music or rhythm to a short story?

Jonathan H.: I have noticed that with my writing before. Do you ever just scrap an idea entirely once you've already written three quarters of the story?

Kirby: Unfortunately, yes. Often. I throw a lot of stuff away. It can be discouraging, but every now and then you hit upon something worth sticking to. You have to be heartless when evaluating your own work.

Kirby: Hi Courtney -- I'm not sure I understand what you mean? Can you be more specific?

Jonathan H.: I throw away many starts, I just can't seem to get anywhere sometimes.

Chris S.: Do you have a theme or general concept in mind when you begin writing, or just "go with the flow"?

Kirby: Jonathan -- maybe you're not starting in the right place? Perhaps starting too early in a story, or too late? If you can't figure out where to go once you've started something, sometimes it helps to look at what you have on the page, and then write what came before.

Courtney S.: In poetry it is easier to use metaphors and other literary devices. Do you use the same kind of things for a short story?

Jonathan H.: I haven't thought of that before, thanks for the help.

Kirby: I think it's a bad idea to have a theme in mind when you start writing. It can feel forced. I don't think a writer consciously selects a theme -- over time you learn what themes concern you as you re-read what you've written.

Greg S.: Where do you like to write? in your house? sitting at a desk? etc....

Kirby: Courtney: yes, you can use all kinds of devices in the story (and the novel). The same as poetry. Usually you want your metaphors to be relative in some way to the character and drama. Such as, say you have a sailor -- well, that person is likely to think in terms of sailing; the metaphors relative to him might have to do with the ocean, naval terms, etc

Jason B.: How can I determine when my "play" on language is taking away from my story?

Kirby: Greg: I guess the goal would be to write wherever. I've written in bars, cafes, on sidewalks.... But honestly I prefer a nice quiet desk. I wear ear plugs at home. For a while I wore headphones with the radio tuned to white noise -- it was distracting at first, but then it slowly blocked everything out.

Kirby: Jason: well, "play" isn't something you can force too much without it calling attention to itself. I think, like music, a writer either has an ear for it or not. If you're too self-conscious about it, it will most likely be distracting to the reader. The best kind of play is something you discover while writing, something that surprises you.

Brady D.: Do you think short stories should relate in some way to personal experience, or do you write whatever you are thinking about even if it has no relevance to things going on around you?

Courtney S.: How often do you write? Do you plan times to sit down and write or does it just come to you?

Kirby: Brady: I don't think "should" is relevant here. There are great writers who write from personal experience; others make it all up. Whatever concerns you as you start writing, that's what counts. You want to try to look at it objectively, to see how a situation or person can be best represented on the page. If you're writing only from personal experience, it can be hard to identify what's dramatically interesting, as you can be too concerned with "the way he/she really is", or "the way it really happened."

Josh M.: Have you ever actually sat down and written a story set to a piece of music you were listening to?

Josh M.: And if so, what type of music was it?

Kirby: Courtney: It's best for me to have a planned time to write. If you wait until inspiration comes while you're doing something else, it never happens. I write every day (usually), from 6 to 9 in the morning.

Kirby: Josh -- I've never done that, but I've thought about it before. Listening to Miles Davis' album "Kind of Blue" gave me an idea to write stories the way they recorded that album -- they started with a basic chord structure, then improvised from there. But I've never taken the time to actually sit down and try it (yet)!

Jacob S.: Kirby: I often have trouble with charachter development when writing a short story. I find that some of my charachters do uncharachteristic things just to further the plot in the direction I want it to go. Usually this leaves me with shallow charachters who lack realistic motivation. How can I keep the plotline without comprimising the charachters?

Brady D.: Who is your favorite author and whom inspires you to write?

Kirby: Josh: also, listening to Bach's cello suites sometimes gets my writing going, I don't know why. I don't even like classical music all that much. But rock -- anything with singing -- distracts me to much to write to.

Kim: When writing a "normal" fiction story, do you think its ok to include a few small things that might be slightly out of the ordinary?

Josh M.: That's odd. I guess it is just the difference in people. I've always found that something with a verbal message inspired me to write even better stories, as opposed to a song with no lyrics. In my opinion, songs without lyrics leave too much to the imagination.

Kirby: Jacob: keep in mind that the best way to identify character is through his/her actions. Those actions are what should generate the plot. If your characters have to be forced into following your plot, then I would discard the plot and follow these characters to see what they want to do.

Zach H: Kriby---I do okay once I get into a story. Its starts to flow a little bit better once I get a couple pages down on paper. Its in the begining when I have a problems developing the characters, setting, plot... I write something down and then scrap it and do it again. There are so many different ways to go when you write, and once you start, you are stuck with that senario. What can you look for in the begining parts of a piece that would set a stroung foundation for a good story???

Kirby: Brady: I like Nabokov a lot, and James Joyce. I like writers who push the envelope and play with form -- who don't seem satisfied with conventional storytelling. That's just my personal preference, though.

Kirby: Zach: well, the best beginnings seem to me to set up an expectation -- you want to know what's going to happen next. Don't worry too much about getting the beginning perfect until you've finished an entire draft. Then you'll know how best to begin the story.

Courtney B.: hi

Kirby: Josh -- back to music and singing, it's true that a good line from a song can evoke me to write something similar. "Jesus' Son" by Denis Johnson seems to have been started from a Lou Reed song.

Lisa M: Hello- I always find that I have more trouble with writing the ending to a story as opposed to the beginning because I can never seem to get the closure

Courtney B.: You said earlier that you do not use life experiences when getting ideas. Can you explain more to me how you begin a piece of writing. I often find myself stuck when thinking of ideas.

Kirby: Kim -- I'm not sure what you meant by "out of the ordinary" in a "normal story" -- can you help me out?

Josh M.: Do you think it is smarter to let the story flow from beginning to end, or maybe create a general overview of where exactly you want the story to go? What I mean is, do you actually sit down and figure out the characters, their weaknesses, and their experiences, or do you start and finish with no planning?

Kirby: It's not that I don't use life experiences -- just that I try to look at a situation I've lived through for its potential as a story -- not just something I've done. You know: questions of tension, or of beauty -- ways to make the real situation more interesting than it may have been in actual life. Trying to get to the meaning of it. I think.

Kirby: Usually I begin writing with a specific detail -- the view of a street, for example -- or a situation: two people fighting, or an insult overheard. Then I start "learn" the story as I'm writing. I rarely have an entire plot in my head when I begin writing.

Kim: haha umm ok well our teacher told us to write our fiction stories about something that was still "normal life," like no romance or science fiction...but do you think it would weaken a story to add something that was completely impossible scenario into an otherwise everyday life, normal story??

Kirby: Josh: no, I don't sit down and map that stuff out. It seems to me that it's impossible to know these things about characters until you've written a draft. Then, if I feel like someone in my story is a bit "vague" or whatever, I'll sometimes try those things you've mentioned, to see if i can get a better handle on them.

Josh M.: Word. Now we agree on something :)

Jacob S.: Usually when I write, I will just go nonstop for a few chapters then slowly lose interest in the piece. What do you do to keep your writing new and fresh not only to the reader's eyes, but to your own?

Nathan: When writing I often reach a point where I don't know where to go and I hit a wall. I stare at my paper and absolutely nothing flows onto it. Do you have any suggestions on how can I overcome this writer's block and continue on with my story?

Kirby: Kim -- it depends on how you handled that scenario. If it's there for no reason, then you don't need to keep it. If the impossibility of something is relevant to the rest of the story, then it's necessary. I think what your teacher is trying to encourage in your writing is that you look at life today as it is, and not fantasize about what it could be (romance, sci-fi).

Zach H: I feel that problem Jacob

Jonathan H.: I do too Jacob.

Kirby: Of course, exploring the difference between how life is and what one wishes it could be provides great material for a story....

Kim: ok, thanks

Josh M.: Yep, I agree.

Courtney B.: any good ideas for a short story?

Teacher E: Kim: I agree with Kirby and I almost made it a requirement for this assignment to do exactly what you suggest: add a completely impossible scenario into an otherwise "everyday life, normal story" SO I hope you do...

Josh M.: Writers' Block isn't fun :)

Betsey: Let's give Kirby a chance to catch up...he's got about 3 questions to get to!

Brady D.: Nathan: That one drawing you did in your large sketch book of the karate guy with the orange and yellow pastel's was awesome...you should write a story about that karate guy and then when you publish it put that drawing on the cover. I would buy it.

Kirby: Jacob and Nathan -- those questions kind of go together. It's true, getting stuck happens. One thing that helps me is to go back and read closely what comes before this sticking-place. Often I find I've missed an opportunity, and that gives me a new start.

Josh M.: Eric, what do you mean by "an impossible scenario"? For instance, given a scene with 2 humans and a kitten, would you want the kitten to speak? Or maybe I'm taking it the wrong way?

Josh M.: Sorry, that's the first thing that popped in my head.

Kirby: As for getting bored with your work: take a good look at what you've written. If your "several chapters" in, you may be taking too long to get the story out. That may be why it bores you. Try to boil things down into essentials, and the pace will quicken, and that may renew your interest in what you're writing.

Teacher E: Yes, as Kirby said, let the kitten speak if it needs to, if the story needs it to, if if makes your story more True (but don't let the kitten speak if it would just be a gimmik)

Josh M.: Understood.

Nathan: Brady: Thanks

Teacher E: Where does the kitten speak in LaSalle and Moody?

Jonathan H.: Teacher E, you say to add an impossible scenario, but can we take it far in your opinion?

Kirby: Word up, Teacher Eric. You don't want to be too self-indulgent in your work. Stick to what the story NEEDS -- and that only --and discard the rest.
Kirby: In Moody, I'd say life in a Chicken Mask is a lot like a kitten talking. Or his sister's ashes thrown on her ex...

Josh M.: Agreed. The chicken mask is definitely comparable to the "kitten talking" scenario. The chicken mask was to be taken literally, but it was so much more than that. I think we covered that topic in class on Monday.

Josh M.: Definitely something you can sink your teeth into.

Kirby: what did you all have to say about the chicken mask? I'd be curious to know.

Teacher E: Jonathan: take it far into the world of truth where the imagination explores what life is and isn't and what one wants and needs it to be. What will be your chicken mask, what will be your sister's ashes? I like where Kirby is taking us.

Zach H: I can see what you are saying about discarding material that isn't important to the story... but then you have cases like in the last story we read, where the author just went off about the grren M&M's and we gave him praise for that... how can you distinguish between good extras and bad extras?

Teacher E: we thought maybe the chicken mask was a symbol of something...(?)

Brady D.: Sometimes it is hard to develop characters if you don't know much about their background in real life. For example Mexicans living in Texas. Do you suggest sticking to things you know or studying up just a little to grab the basic idea.

Greg S.: The chicken mask at the beginning was hilarious but in the end it just got weird and eerie...

Chris S.: Just that the chicken mask was as symbolic as it was literal.

April: good question Zach! I was wondering that too.

Kirby: Zach: if the extras add to the story, then it's good. If it's just extras ... well, not so good. I'm not sure about this green m & m's thing....

Courtney B.: THe chicken mask definatly held a hidden meaning, I'm just not sure what that is

Josh M.: I could harp on the Chicken Mask for a long time, because it's something, I think, that was inadvertantly left for the reader to decipher. There is a virtually infinite number of ways to interpret why exactly this dude was wearing a chicken mask, but good God, it makes you think.

Kim: the chicken mask and the ashes on his sisters ex thing really freaked me out....even though that whole story was possible,it was all very strange and out of the ordinary

Chris S.: The green m&m was an used to foreshadow, i think it was interesting

Courtney S.: I agree with Zach, how can you define what is a good extra and what is not, the description of the green M&M falling off the filing cabinet kind of foreshadowed things to happen later in Moody's story

Courtney S.: I

Jonathan H.: I think the Chicken Mask was great because it held both figurative meanings and literal meanings.

Josh M.: That's why I even bothered to finish the story. Things that deep, that can pull you in and make you part of the character, are definitely an example of symbolic perfection.

Courtney S.: thought

Zach H: what did the green M&M's forshadow... I might have missed that in class...

Kirby: Brady -- researching what you don't know is a necessary thing. In fact, writing about what you don't know can make you look harder at people, or a situation, and you can be inspired in your writing because of it. It's a way to lend authority to your writing -- learning the specific details of a situation, a culture, that you don't know already.

Zach H: because I thought we just chalked it up to eliquent jibber-jabber...

Chris S.: glenda's discovery that they'd been in her office

Courtney B.: I'm changing the subject, sorry guys. Have you ever met any famous authors? If so, who? Who would you enjoy meeting and discussing literature with?

Kim: Zach:he got caught goofin around in his boss's office because she found a green m&m...& it was kinda right when everything was falling apart for him...right after the "ash" incident

Kirby: Oh, THOSE m &ms. I'd forgotten (it's been a while since I read Moody's story). That was a plot device, wasn't it? Didn't the candy have something to do with bringing two people together, and also getting the narrator caught by his boss for breaking into her office?

Chris S.: exactly

Zach H: yeah I think you are right

Kirby: Uhm, yes I've met and am friends with a few "famous authors." Some are interesting, others are not!

Lisa M: who would you most be interisted in meeting

Chris S.: Do you find it helpful to foreshadow like Moody did with his green M&M?

April: Off the topic but...do you find i hard to critique/revise your own work, and how do you go about it?

Kirby: Most the ones I'd be interested in meeting are dead. But Denis Johnson would be fun to pass a lost weekend with. Ian McEwan.

Josh M.: Holy questions Batman.

Zach H: what kind of advice can you give a person if they are good at writing newspaper articles, but fall short of the descriptive and thought provoking plots?

Zach H: ha

Greg S.: how can you foreshadow, if you don't know the ending to your story? ???

Josh M.: Sorry, it had to be said. we're bombarding this guy.

Kirby: Chris -- well, it's not really foreshadowing with the m & m's. The candy is a device that sets up a later conflict. In that sense, yes, it's very helpful for the writer. Moody needed the boss to discover her office had been broken into; thus, he needed to have his narrator leave behind some evidence. Enter the green m&m.

Kim: i agree w/ josh...

Lisa M: do you ever wonder if people will get the hints that you drop in the story for instance foreshadowing or metaphors- do you ever just wonder if it will go right over their heads

Josh M.: That's just because you're sitting beside me, Kim :)

Kim: but i also wonder about the same thing gregs saying...how are you supposed to forshadow when you're also supposed to be kinda letting the story just flowww along w/ itself?

Kirby: Lisa -- yes, sometimes you worry about planting things in your story that will get missed by a reader. But part of your job, as a writer, is to make sure those things DON'T get missed; you have to find out how to emphasize them properly.

Teacher E: sometimes a writer may have green m and m's because she was eating m&m's when she was writing an early draft of her story--she just lets them fall in to her sentences--then maybe deals with them later--I get this sense in LaSalle's story with the rollerblades, that he just put them in there and let them grow and fester and pickle and root...I revise my work by getting distance from it, putting it away for a day or so, then printing it up in a strange font and / or having a friend read it aloud to me so I can really hear it and "hear" it, then maybe I worry about foreshadowing and going back and emphasizing potenitially interesting things more properly

Brady D.: We talked in class about how the chicken mask acted as a symbol; when you are writing do you purposely add symbols or do you look back at what has happened in your story and develop things into symbols

Kirby: Re: foreshadowing -- obviously you can't foreshadow something that you don't know is going to happen. Therefore, your first draft most likely will not have foreshadowing in it -- unless you get the idea of what's going to happen later, as you are writing....

Lisa M: I understand

Jonathan H.: If I emphasize to much, won't that detract from the flow of the story?

Kim: k thanks eric

Teacher E: emphasize what too much, Jonathan?

Kirby: Teacher Eric just made an excellent point. I agree

Kim: i see

Zach H: Josh has a question for ya Kirby

Jonathan H.: the symbols in the story, in reference to Lisa's question.

Greg S.: makes sense with the foreshadowing thing

Kirby: Ditto with symbols: I think a writer slowly recognizes the worth of an image -- in this case, the chicken mask. Moody probably started it after seeing some guy dancing around advertising a chicken place, and wondered what that kind of life might be like. And he ended up with this story.

Brady D.: I have to go to Algebra class in a few minutes. We are getting a test back today (boo) Anyways it was fun talking to you Mr. Gann (if that is your real name) It was also very helpful.

Josh M.: Yea we were just discussing this in the back row. What if someone were to write a story with absolutely no symbolism at all? Do you think a story like that would go anywhere?

Josh M.: I wasn't going to bring it up, but bah, what the heck.

Kirby: The mask becomes a representation of all the humilations the guy has suffered. The story, to me, is about his quest for some kind of freaking dignity and self-respect

Kate K.: Do you find that being a musician helps with your writing, or vice versa??

Betsey: I guess we are just about out of time. Let Kirby answer these last questions and we'll wrap things up!

Jacob S.: Kirby: I agree

Zach H: we have like two minutes left and I am out of questions... thanks for your time Kirby... :)

Kirby: Josh -- yes of course, symbolism isn't necessary to a story. In fact I'd suggest most writers don't think in terms of symbolism -- the symbols are a good handle for taking a critical look at a work, but not necessarily in the creation of it.

Greg S.: Thanks again too....

Jonathan H.: Thanks again everyone.

Josh M.: Yea definitely. Very enlightened answers. Thanks a lot.

Kirby: Kate: yes, playing music informs my writing. Music is very similar to language, and songs are structured in ways very close to stories

Jason B.: Thanks Kirby

Jacob S.: Thanks for taking the time to talk with us! It really helped me out alot ^_^

Lisa M: yes thank you for your time

April: thanks Kirby!

Nathan: Thanks.

Kirby: I hope I was helpful you guys. Sorry to those questions I missed.

Kim: Thanks Kirby

Teacher E: Kirby (and Betsey!) thank you both so much for your time. All the students will have copies of this conversation on Wed. and we now have a BUNCH of good stuff to think about. Thanks again to both of you (this was great!).

Courtney B.: I enjoyed this, I think we should have discussions on the internet about literature more often.

Courtney S.: Thank you for your help

Betsey: Thank you Eric and class...and a special thanks to Kirby!!!

Kirby: Eric -- I enjoyed this, too. You have some really bright students!

Courtney B.: Thanks for your time Kirb

Josh M.: Definitely. Too bad I have algebra next, or I could stay on.

Josh M.: *cry*

Zach H: yep yep.... big ups to Kirby

Zach H: later all

Josh M.: PEACE!